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Montreal Mirror, Nov.26 - Tales from the underground
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Flow



Inscrit le: 29 Oct 2002
Messages: 22
Localisation: The Point

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 1:26 am    Sujet du message: Montreal Mirror, Nov.26 - Tales from the underground Répondre en citant

Not really any news, more of a personal column.

Citation:
------Tales from the underground by KRISTIAN GRAVENOR------

Those who spend a lot of time on the metro face a serious health threat. While the train barrels through the underground, your innards are shaken and jolted on your clean white skeleton by six forces: surge (fore and aft), heave (up and down), sway (side to side) as well as the angular motions of pitch, roll and yaw.

...
The metro has two drivers. One sits at the back and reads the Journal de Montréal. The other driver actually takes temporary control of the reins when the automatic commands fail. This happens when the wheels lose contact with track sensors, which can occur when there's liquid on the tracks. The train stops automatically, using Quebec-grown wood brakes.

....

The vibration issue will likely lead the city to announce that the MTC urgently needs new trains. I'd love to see newer, more comfortable metro cars with all the modern amenities. But it's not necessary. The metros currently run at a top speed of 72 kilometres an hour, much faster than most other subway systems. If they slowed the train by around 15 kilometres an hour on the green line, vibrations would be reduced to acceptable levels. As an occasional rider, I'd like to see the money saved put into carpets and relaxing furniture and air conditioning on the metro cars. The day of the get-'em-out fast-food-court furniture is pretty over.


[Article snipped. Please do not copy and paste the full text of articles on which you do not own the copyright. The full text may be found at http://www.montrealmirror.com/meat/kristian.html . - matt_mcl, moderator]


Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't it been years since Metro operators rode in the last car? Don't all lines have the terminus switch-up?
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matt_mcl



Inscrit le: 09 Aoû 2001
Messages: 1699
Localisation: Montréal

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 2:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Here's the letter I sent Kristian. I sent a modified version to Letters to the Editor.

Citation:
Dear Kristian,

Thanks for the interesting column on the metro this week.

Note a mistake, though: you say, "The metro has two drivers. One sits at the back and reads the Journal de Montréal. The other driver actually takes temporary control of the reins when the automatic commands fail."

This is only true on the yellow line. The other three lines have only one driver, having gotten rid of the practice of using two some time ago, for cost effectiveness reasons. Now, the return driver embarks at the rear end of the train at the terminus.

The yellow line retains its two drivers because the route is so short that it is impractical to constantly be switching drivers.

I would also like to take issue with your conclusion that new metro trains are not needed. Although the vibration on the green line would be reduced by reducing speeds, the main problem is that the green line cars (MR-63) are now almost 40 years old, having been in service since the metro was opened in 1966. This puts them among the oldest rolling stock in use on any metro in the world.

They are reaching the end of their lifespan; even if the government chose to fund their replacement immediately, the new rolling stock would not be ready for another four or five years. Although they have proven amazingly reliable, they will inevitably begin to degrade, and soon, causing delays, loss of service, frustration, expense, and loss of ridership.

(Just imagine a 1966 automobile - and also, imagine that the STM's 759 metro cars have travelled a total of two billion kilometres since then, more than the distance between the Sun and the planet Saturn!)

Unfortunately, neither the Péquistes nor the Liberals that took their place have seen fit to replace them yet. Apparently they believe that the trains can just keep running forever.

All the best,
Matthew McLauchlin
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scott_evil



Inscrit le: 26 Nov 2001
Messages: 164
Localisation: Montr?al

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 8:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

More gross inaccuracies... Where does this guy get his information?

Citation:
The trains on that line were built in 1963 and have been in use since the system opened four years later. The orange line was built a decade after and introduced during the 1976 Olympics and isn't considered too shaky.


The metro opened in 1966, and the orange line was part of the initial network.

He's confusing the introduction of the MR-63s and MR-73s with the opening of the metro lines on which they currently run, respectively. If he had done any research, he would know what we on the forum all do: MR-63s ran on all three lines until the introduction of the MR-73s -- and MR-73s did run on the green line for a time. (I don't know how frequently, but we've seen the pictures.)

Matt, did you point any of these things out in your letter to the editor? If not, I'll send him an email. I don't care if it's a weekly opinion or whatever column; it's bad journalism nonetheless.
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scott_evil



Inscrit le: 26 Nov 2001
Messages: 164
Localisation: Montr?al

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 8:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I emailed him.
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Maddy



Inscrit le: 02 Fév 2003
Messages: 466
Localisation: Tokyo - Japon

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 12:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

give me a break... this is what reporter do. check the story half-assed and dish it out as legit news. then the mainstream read this and base their judgements.

This is why the politicians seem to think the metros will run forever. It doesn't help that the subways are so reliable either. ("if it ain't broke don't fix it", comes to mind)

Citation:
The trains on that line were built in 1963 and have been in use since the system opened four years later. The orange line was built a decade after and introduced during the 1976 Olympics and isn't considered too shaky.


This guy didn't even bother to think about the issue. Guess he was too drunk over the beers with his "insider". Just giving the isue thought for 30 seconds would have made him realise, it is the green line that goes to the olympic stadium, not the orange.

This article is just infuriating, total lack of credibility and common sense. Make me want to ask the reporter to divulge his source, I believe he was under pressure to write an article, and all this came to him in a dream.
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scott_evil



Inscrit le: 26 Nov 2001
Messages: 164
Localisation: Montr?al

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 1:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

His reply to me doesn't really acknowledge his glaring errors... he said his editor was the one who convinced him the metro opened in 1967, and that he grew up when the green line was the only line that mattered... so he's making excuses for not doing a modicum of research.

What's strange is that he didn't do that research, when he said in his reply that he visits metrodemontreal.com often. WTF?

Whatever.
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matt_mcl



Inscrit le: 09 Aoû 2001
Messages: 1699
Localisation: Montréal

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 2:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hey scott, this'll get under your skin: a while ago he repeated the "Patient Zero" myth, and when I emailed him, he blew it off and said something like he wasn't really repeating the myth, or he was repeating it as a myth (which he wasn't, really, since he didn't deny it in the article), etc., etc.
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ggtyh



Inscrit le: 03 Mai 2002
Messages: 919
Localisation: Pointe St-Charles

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 6:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Nevertheless, I appreciated this part:
Citation:
The metro has two drivers. One sits at the back and reads the Journal de Montréal.
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Mystic



Inscrit le: 23 Juin 2002
Messages: 470
Localisation: Montreal, Quebec

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 8:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

scott_evil a écrit:
he would know what we on the forum all do: MR-63s ran on all three lines until the introduction of the MR-73s -- and MR-73s did run on the green line for a time. (I don't know how frequently, but we've seen the pictures.)


I'll have to add totally off the main topic, but relevant all the same. A short time ago, I can't exactly remember when, but I was riding on an MR-73 on the green line. I got on at Angrignon, and was going to Peel, but decided to ride all the way to the end of the line and back to Peel. (I often do that when something interests me, such as a driver in training that frequently slams on the brakes and misses the platform, etc...)

The only difference inside was the Telecite signs were blocked with the "X" signs that are used when the doors are broken, and some had yellow danger tape and black garbage bags over them. (strage?) The train was in MR, and had a driver in the front and the back.

I would have spent the whole day riding back and forth on that train just to see people's reactions to the difference, and to hear the dou dou douuuuu on the green line once again.

It was a fun experience!

Anyways... About the topic at hand. I agree that the reporter should have spent more time finding information from more than once source, and looking into this sort of thing himself. He said he visits here often, but if he knew about the visite last October, he should have come along and did a report about it.

It's true that two drivers haven't been used regularly in atleast the last 5 years on 3 of the 4 lines, only on occasion if training a new driver, or if there are mechanical difficulties, there is sometimes a driver in the back or middle of the train.

I'd love the MR-63's to last forever, they're a piece of history, but I have to be realistic... Atleast the MR-73's have quite a few more years left on them, especially since a lot of them were made in the 80's for Line 5!

I still wish the information would have been more accurate so that the metro is not portrayed as something it isn't; but I'm not the press, I can only write in to comment and hope to be heard.
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tfitzg



Inscrit le: 23 Juin 2002
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Localisation: Arrondissement de Verdun

MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 28, 2003 10:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

What gets to me is how newspapers like The Mirror, that are so depedent on the Metro network for its distribution, could not only be so horribly out of touch on commuter issues, but can't be bothered to investigate these issues properly when they do write about them.

This Fall I had to write to Hour to correct their blatant errors in an article about the AMT origin-destination survey. I mean... The STM is now the AMT? What is that?!


Moi, ce qui m'énèvre, c'est comment les journaux comme The Mirror, qui dépendent tant du réseau Métro pour leur distribution, puisse ne pas être au courrant des questions de TEC, mais pire soit même pas intéressé à bien rechercher les enjeux lorsqu'ils en parlent.

Cette automne j'ai dû écrire au Hour pour leur pour les graves erreurs parus dans un item à propos de l'enquête origine-destination. Franchement : La STM est devenue l'AMT ?! C'est du n'importe quoi !
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M.L.



Inscrit le: 23 Fév 2002
Messages: 1952
Localisation: Montréal

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 29, 2003 8:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Mystic a écrit:
It's true that two drivers haven't been used regularly in at least the last 5 years on 3 of the 4 lines, (...)

Je crois me rappeler que la première occurrence de la conduite à un seul opérateur remonte à juin 1986 avec l'ouverture du premier tronçon de la ligne 5-bleue (de Castelnau/Saint-Michel). À l'époque, je me souviens que le syndicat des chauffeurs d'autobus et opérateurs de métro avait maugréé et avait réclamé sans succès que la conduite des rames de trois voitures de la 5 se fasse à deux opérateurs.

Quelqu'un sait quand la conduite à un opérateur s'est généralisée sur l'ensemble du réseau?

tfitzg a écrit:
What gets to me is...
(...)
Moi, ce qui m'énèvre, c'est...

Thanks for the translation/Merci pour la traduction Tim!
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Mystic



Inscrit le: 23 Juin 2002
Messages: 470
Localisation: Montreal, Quebec

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 29, 2003 9:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

M.L. a écrit:
Je crois me rappeler que la première occurrence de la conduite à un seul opérateur remonte à juin 1986 avec l'ouverture du premier tronçon de la ligne 5-bleue (de Castelnau/Saint-Michel). À l'époque, je me souviens que le syndicat des chauffeurs d'autobus et opérateurs de métro avait maugréé et avait réclamé sans succès que la conduite des rames de trois voitures de la 5 se fasse à deux opérateurs.


Pour moi, je pense que le premier fois que j'ai vu un seul conducteur c'est après l'ouverture de la station Cote-Vertu sur la ligne Orange.
Je me rappelle de voir 3 ou 4 conducteurs à l'avant de la station, où le train arrive, tout se reposant sur des chaises de jardin.

Je pense que les MR-63 a eu seulement un conducteur plus tard que les MR-73 parce qu'ils ont dû modifier les trains pour permettre le conducteur d'ouvrir la porte avec un clé par l'extérieur.
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matt_mcl



Inscrit le: 09 Aoû 2001
Messages: 1699
Localisation: Montréal

MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 30, 2003 11:19 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

M.L. a écrit:
Mystic a écrit:
It's true that two drivers haven't been used regularly in at least the last 5 years on 3 of the 4 lines, (...)

Je crois me rappeler que la première occurrence de la conduite à un seul opérateur remonte à juin 1986 avec l'ouverture du premier tronçon de la ligne 5-bleue (de Castelnau/Saint-Michel).


Ça serait à cause que la ligne était si courte (la même raison que pour la ligne jaune)?
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Lunik



Inscrit le: 07 Avr 2002
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Localisation: Braine-le-Comte, 7090, Belgique

MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 30, 2003 12:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

mon opérateur m'a dit que la ligne jaune se fait a 2 opérateur a cause des nombreux changement de directions a Berri... et aussi parce que ca ne donnerais rien a l'opérateur d'attendre au Quai, ca reviendrais au même...
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scott_evil



Inscrit le: 26 Nov 2001
Messages: 164
Localisation: Montr?al

MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 12:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

tfitzg a écrit:
What gets to me is how newspapers like The Mirror, that are so depedent on the Metro network for its distribution, could not only be so horribly out of touch on commuter issues, but can't be bothered to investigate these issues properly when they do write about them.


Well, in his email to me, he actually said he hasn't taken the metro in years and years, because he needs a car since he has kids.

And he's writing about the metro as if he rode it just this morning.
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Frank-Talon



Inscrit le: 16 Nov 2002
Messages: 1620
Localisation: Le Village de Montr?al

MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 2:31 pm    Sujet du message: Bloody... Répondre en citant

Bloody bullocky bourgeoisie!

Même le Mirror s'embougeoise!
La feuille contestataire des années 80.
Où pour la première fois on avait un chroniqueur Gay. Où on dénonçait l'establishment anglophone et on prenait pour le OUI. Où on a soulevé pour la première fois les problèmes d'écologie comme les OGM et de santé comme le manque de recherche contre le sida. Où l'on pourfendait les gros cons et la police...

Mais ne soyons pas si surpris: le Mirror appartient à Québécor!
Les Pédaleau (non, ce n'est pas une faute de frappe...) ont bâti leur empire en vendant des annonces de "chars".
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scott_evil



Inscrit le: 26 Nov 2001
Messages: 164
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Bloody... Répondre en citant

Frank-Talon a écrit:
Bloody bullocky bourgeoisie!



AbFab much, sweetie?
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Frank-Talon



Inscrit le: 16 Nov 2002
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MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 3:22 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Bloody... Répondre en citant

scott_evil a écrit:
Frank-Talon a écrit:
Bloody bullocky bourgeoisie!

AbFab much, sweetie?


Champers, Sweetie? Oh Fabulous, Darling!
Ce sera mon surnom au Cabaret à Mado: "EDWINA-MONTPETIT"
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Marc_G



Inscrit le: 28 Juil 2003
Messages: 16
Localisation: Lachine

MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 8:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Citation:
and MR-73s did run on the green line for a time. (I don't know how frequently, but we've seen the pictures.)


Call me a fool, but I did not know this. Does someone have any pics? And when did the 73's last run on the Green Line?
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Mystic



Inscrit le: 23 Juin 2002
Messages: 470
Localisation: Montreal, Quebec

MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 01, 2003 10:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

[quote="Marc_G"]
Citation:

Call me a fool, but I did not know this. Does someone have any pics? And when did the 73's last run on the Green Line?


I'm not sure of the last time an MR-73 last ran regularly on the Green Line, but I remember a couple of months ago when I rode an MR-73 on the Green Line. (Read my reply about 10 messages up on my experience).

Oh, and here's a photo of an MR-73 at Angrignon from the early 80's.


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